Today’s conversation fits under the P of Pause

Yes, I tricked you. Obviously Pause is not a word from the Humane Marketing Mandala.

That’s right. I’m putting the podcast on pause in 2026.

Some of you know that I’m co-creating a new community called Inner Development at work, all around the Inner Development Guide framework, where we want to change the world, starting from within.

Sound similar to Humane Marketing. That’s right. I was practicing this framework before it even existed.

Anyways, that community takes up a lot of my pro bono time right now, and I simply have to do in my own business, what I often help my 1on1 Coaching clients do in theirs: look at all the things we’re doing, and then prioritizing which ones to continue to invest energy in.

And unfortunately the podcast didn’t make the cut.

As you might know, creating and hosting a podcast takes a LOT of time, and I simply need and want to focus this time on other things right now.

So I’m pressing pause right now.

Pause but not Full Stop.

Because I might still publish an episode occassionally, whenever I meet a new amazing human being that I just want to have a conversation with.

So don’t unsubscribe completely.

Talking about unsubscribe.

I also moved the show to Kajabi (because they include the podcast in my plan) and just transferred all the episodes over the other day.

And guess how many episodes there was?

327!

Yes, I know, the visuals say 220, but I’ve actually been podcasting long before the Humane Marketing podcast. The first show was called ‘Where Introverts Grow Their Business’, then I renamed it to ‘The Gentle Business Revolution’, which finally morphed into ‘The Humane Marketing Show’
So yes, 327 episodes. Wow. I think I deserve a pause 🙂

Oh, what I wanted to say is that by moving to another podcast host I’m not completely sure what happens if you’re subscribed to the show in an app. So it maybe that you have to update it, or look for the show again and resubscribe.

Also, just because I’m pausing the podcast doesn’t mean I’m pausing the busienss.

I’m continuing to hold my two programs, Marketing Like we’re human and ‘How to sell in 2026 and beyond’. In fact the marketing prorgram starts another cohort on Feb 4th if you’d like to join us go to humane.marketing/program

I also continue my Conscious Business Coaching with 1-on-1 clients, so if you’d like support to help you grow your business with integrity in 2026, do reach out. you can go to humane.marketing/coaching to find out more.

Other ways to keep in touch and stay up to date with humane marketing topics:

• get on my email list at humane.marketing/1page
• connect with me on LinkedIn
• if you’re a meditator connect with me on Insight Timer where I regularly host lives around conscious business topics
• follow my blog, I’ve started blogging again more regularly
• read my books

It’s been a pleasure to serve you with real and authentic conversations around the topics of humane marketing, selling and business.

Wishing you a lovely end of the year and Happy Holidays

This is the 5th episode of our series with Kerry Dobson. We loved our previous collaboration so much, that we decided to continue.

This time we're talking about the Marketing Like We're Human program and giving it a little refresher. In this episode Kerry shares some feedback from previous participants of the program, what was great and what could be improved

>> please join us for a workshop on the 1-Page Marketing Plan on December 3rd. You can sign up here: https://www.humane.marketing/december3rd

I've been hosting this program twice per year since 2019. It's a deep dive into the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala where you will learn to market from within.

This program is for you if:

you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way
you want to make a difference with your work
you are just starting out, or have been in business for a while but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you
or you are pivoting your business from 'business as usual' to 'your life's work' and want to radically change the way you get clients

The next cohort starts on Feb 4th and

You can find out more at https://www.humane.marketing/program

In this series of conversations Kerry asks me questions about the Marketing Like We're Human program and together we give it a little make-over.

Just as a refresher, Kerry is a small group specialist who focuses on creating meaningful group programs. Kerry will actually join the program as co-facilitator and infuse her long experience with making groups impactful and transformational.

And if you have any questions that you'd like us to address, you can reach out to either me or Kerry directly.

This is the 4th episode of our series with Kerry Dobson. We loved our previous collaboration so much, that we decided to continue.

This time we're talking about the Marketing Like We're Human program and giving it a little refresher. In this episode we talk about the resources or workbooks of the program, and what we'll keep and what we'll get rid off.

>> please join us for a workshop on the 1-Page Marketing Plan on December 3rd. You can sign up here: https://www.humane.marketing/december3rd

I've been hosting this program twice per year since 2019. It's a deep dive into the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala where you will learn to market from within.

This program is for you if:

you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way
you want to make a difference with your work
you are just starting out, or have been in business for a while but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you
or you are pivoting your business from 'business as usual' to 'your life's work' and want to radically change the way you get clients

The next cohort starts on Feb 4th and

You can find out more at https://www.humane.marketing/program

In this series of conversations Kerry asks me questions about the Marketing Like We're Human program and together we give it a little make-over.

Just as a refresher, Kerry is a small group specialist who focuses on creating meaningful group programs. Kerry will actually join the program as co-facilitator and infuse her long experience with making groups impactful and transformational.

 

I'll be posting these conversations as bonus episodes, so make sure you're subscribed to the show to get notified about the following convos.

 

And if you have any questions that you'd like us to address, you can reach out to either me or Kerry directly.

This is the 3rd episode of our new series with Kerry Dobson. We loved our previous collaboration so much, that we decided to continue.

This time we're talking about the Marketing Like We're Human program and giving it a little refresher. In this episode we talk about each module in detail, and what we'll keep and what we'll get rid off.

I've been hosting this program twice per year since 2019. It's a deep dive into the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala where you will learn to market from within.

This program is for you if:

you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way
you want to make a difference with your work
you are just starting out, or have been in business for a while but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you
or you are pivoting your business from 'business as usual' to 'your life's work' and want to radically change the way you get clients

The next cohort starts on Feb 4th and

You can find out more at https://www.humane.marketing/program

In this series of conversations Kerry asks me questions about the Marketing Like We're Human program and together we give it a little make-over.

Just as a refresher, Kerry is a small group specialist who focuses on creating meaningful group programs. Kerry will actually join the program as co-facilitator and infuse her long experience with making groups impactful and transformational.

 

I'll be posting these conversations as bonus episodes, so make sure you're subscribed to the show to get notified about the following convos.

 

And if you have any questions that you'd like us to address, you can reach out to either me or Kerry directly.

This is the 2nd episode of our new series with Kerry Dobson. We loved our previous collaboration so much, that we decided to continue.

This time we're talking about the Marketing Like We're Human program and giving it a little refresher. In this episode we talk about the pivotal moments of the program

I've been hosting this program twice per year since 2019. It's a deep dive into the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala where you will learn to market from within.

This program is for you if:

you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way
you want to make a difference with your work
you are just starting out, or have been in business for a while but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you
or you are pivoting your business from 'business as usual' to 'your life's work' and want to radically change the way you get clients

The next cohort starts on Feb 4th and

You can find out more at https://www.humane.marketing/program

In this series of conversations Kerry asks me questions about the Marketing Like We're Human program and together we give it a little make-over.

Just as a refresher, Kerry is a small group specialist who focuses on creating meaningful group programs. Kerry will actually join the program as co-facilitator and infuse her long experience with making groups impactful and transformational.

 

I'll be posting these conversations as bonus episodes, so make sure you're subscribed to the show to get notified about the following convos.

 

And if you have any questions that you'd like us to address, you can reach out to either me or Kerry directly.

I'm kicking off another little series with Kerry Dobson. We loved our previous collaboration so much, that we decided to continue.

This time we're talking about the Marketing Like We're Human program and giving it a little refresher.

I've been hosting this program twice per year since 2019. It's a deep dive into the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala where you will learn to market from within.

This program is for you if:

you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way
you want to make a difference with your work
you are just starting out, or have been in business for a while but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you
or you are pivoting your business from 'business as usual' to 'your life's work' and want to radically change the way you get clients

The next cohort starts on Feb 4th and

You can find out more at humane.marketing/program

In this series of conversations Kerry asks me questions about the Marketing Like We're Human program and together we give it a little make-over.

Just as a refresher, Kerry is a small group specialist who focuses on creating meaningful group programs. Kerry will actually join the program as co-facilitator and infuse her long experience with making groups impactful and transformational.

 

I'll be posting these conversations as bonus episodes, so make sure you're subscribed to the show to get notified about the following convos.

 

And if you have any questions that you'd like us to address, you can reach out to either me or Kerry directly.

Neurodivergent Marketing is a real-talk conversation with Myriam Martinez for neurodivergent entrepreneurs who want marketing that fits their nervous system. We unpack why masking turns marketing into performance and how overload and pace create the real friction.

We name the trust breakers (pain-poking, fake "live" webinars, countdown panic) and offer humane swaps: "signpost" instead of lead magnet, "people who clicked" instead of conversions, and publishing prices, totals, and time needs before any call. Expect consent-led sales calls, boundaries as care, and Neurodivergent strengths—detail, patterning, honesty, creativity—as positioning superpowers so people can choose with bodily safety, time, and agency.

The outcome: a sustainable, sovereign, and humane way to market.

In this episode we discussed:

• How many of us discover neurodivergence through our families and feel relief naming it.
• Why masking in life makes "performing" in marketing extra exhausting.
• That overload and pace are the core friction—not a mindset issue.
• How old marketing norms (pain-poking, fake "live" webinars, countdown panic) violate trust.
• Reframing jargon into human words: "lead magnet" → "signpost," "conversions" → "people who clicked."
• Why transparency matters: publish prices, totals, and time needs before any call.
• How ND strengths—detail, patterning, honesty, creativity—become positioning superpowers.
• That buyers need bodily safety, time, and agency to choose.
• Why consent-led sales calls beat scripts and simulation.
• Boundaries as care: limited meetings, clear hours, recovery time after stimulation.
• Embracing your wiring (not fixing it) reduces anxiety and increases sustainability.
• A hopeful future: a rising generation that won't tolerate manipulation and leads with sovereignty.

Watch this episode on YouTube

--

Speaker 0: miriam, it's good to have you back. welcome to the humane marketing podcast.

Speaker 1: sarah, i'm so happy to be back on your podcast.

Speaker 0: back in my house. right? we just yes. it's just like having a conversation in my house. yes.

Speaker 1: yes. exactly.

Speaker 0: yeah. so you've been on the show before, but this time we decided to talk about neurodivergent marketing, which is something that i'm super excited about and especially to talk about it with you, um, because you went through this own little transformation and awakening or how would you call it? yeah.

Speaker 1: i mean, it's an awakening or rediscovery, you know, in a way of who i am, who i really am at my core, and how that impacts everything that i do.

Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. because we, uh, worked together a few years back. and back then, it was very much focused on women and well-being, the work that you were doing. and so tell us a little bit how that has changed over the most recent months, year.

Speaker 1: yeah. so like most adults, it started with my kids' diagnoses of adhd and becoming more curious about it. you know, i'm a therapist, so i i'm i always understood the diagnosis. you know, i understood it in that way, maybe, like, in a more removed way. but once it was in my home, you know, and i was really living with it, i obviously became much more curious about it. you know? and then it turns out that, you know, my husband is adhd, and it's like, oh, look at them. they're like two peas in a pod. you know? um, and so i started doing more training around this because i wanted to be more supportive for people around this. and quickly, i started to see some traits, you know, show up for me. and for me, it's a really interesting cross between autism and adhd, which there's a term that's floating around out there called adhd. and that's not a diagnosis. right? but it just reflects that there's this cross between these two worlds sometimes. and, you know, we're learning all the time about neurodivergence, you know, and how it shows up and it's so different for everybody.

Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. thanks for sharing your story. and it kinda went very similarly for me. like for the longest time, we, you know, didn't know, uh, what my son was experiencing. and for i first thought, well, introvert like, back in the days, we just talked about introverts, extroverts. yep. and then all of a sudden this term hsp came up and i discovered, oh, i'm a highly sensitive person. and so i thought, oh, that's probably what he is as well. and and and then, you know, as it kept as we kept discovering more and, you know, thank god we have so much information out there now and youtube videos and all of that. it's it's so helpful. i don't know. well, i guess that's a big reason why back in the days it wasn't discovered. right? i'm pretty sure my dad is autistic, but how would he have known if if there wasn't that much content out there and diagnosis? and and so, yeah, learning it about my son that he's on the spectrum and then pretty sure my husband is too. and and so just, yeah, finding out more and more and and then working with clients who have adhd or, um, you know, our hsps, neurodivergency. and so i think i couldn't think of a better person than you to have this conversation around marketing because that's really what we worked on together as well. and, like, just i remember your expression of frustration around this thing that we call marketing and and how it just, like, your brain was, like, going against it and you're like, no.

Speaker 1: in all the ways. yeah. i could not process it.

Speaker 0: yeah. exactly. so if we if you maybe think back to that time, but then also just to generalize, what do you think like, why is marketing the old way of marketing? right? why is that so counterintuitive for, uh, people on the neurodivergent spectrum? why do they react like you did? whereas, like, i just don't get it. why would we do this like that?

Speaker 1: right. right. no. exactly. um, it's it's multilayered. right? because when we're talking about neurodivergence, we're talking about a variety of different disorders and diagnoses. right? so that could include autism, adhd, dyslexia, dyscalculia, which is, you know, having a hard time with numbers or number concepts, dyspraxia, which is having a lot of uncoordination in your body, right, tourette's. i mean, there's such a list that falls under neurodivergence. so when we talk about these generals, i wanna make sure that i put that disclaimer out there that it's not necessarily applicable to everybody under that umbrella. but that in general, really what it comes down to is sensory overload. like, it's just too much. it's too and and then pace. it's too fast. it's too fast moving. we can't process. i mean, which which is how i started this conversation. right? i was like, i can't process this. it was too much. it was too much. you know? and what's hard when you are experiencing neurodivergence, but you don't know that that's what's happening is that you're comparing yourself to the neurotypical world, which is looking at you like, what's the big deal? yeah. i don't understand what your problem is.

Speaker 0: mhmm.

Speaker 1: right? and so i really struggled with my self esteem around my business, for myself. like, can i even do this? because i can't do these things. i'm having a hard time. it's you know? and then you have people telling you it's a mindset issue. you know? and it's like, no. i literally can't understand this concept. right? so it's so much of it is that sensory piece, like i said, and just it's too fast and short deadlines and pressure. and it's just not something that works with the neurodivergent nervous system. we're much more sensitive than that.

Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. and what i experience also from, you know, when i hear back from clients is is this authenticity piece. so as we know, uh, there's a lot of masking that needs to happen for or not needs to, but is happening for neurodivergent peoples in order to fit in. right?

Speaker 1: it's part of survival.

Speaker 0: and yeah. exactly. and so and so it almost seems like, well, they have to wear this mask all the time to survive, to fit in. and so they are kind of, like, revolting against having to wear this mask as well in the marketing field and in the business field. it's just, like, so exhausting to to do that.

Speaker 1: it's so exhausting. yeah. absolutely. and and i do think that it it's it's 10 times more exhausting when you don't know what's going on. you know? so a lot of the work that i do with adults, right, is help them see that they are probably under this umbrella. right? and we start looking at some of their behaviors, right, and their patterns. and then quickly together, we can identify, oh, yeah. it looks like maybe you're adhd or it looks like maybe you fall under autism or, you know, whatever it is. or maybe there's more than one thing going on, you know, adhd with dyslexia. right? dyscalculia is something that's, you know, relatively new in terms of, um, of a term that's used out there. right? and for me personally, i mean, i think i i'm a i i might have cried when i heard that term. you know? it was like, oh, right. so it's not that i'm dumb. it's not that i'm not a, quote, unquote, math person. like, my brain literally has a hard time processing numbers and number concepts just like a dyslexic can't see letters in the right form. it's the same.

Speaker 0: yeah. and here we are, you know, in marketing, keep telling people to not the numbers so much, but the the content i'm thinking of, like, keep creating all this content. well, you know, uh, if you have dyslexia, writing and reading is definitely not part of the things that you enjoy doing. and so, again, if you compare yourself to the neurotypical people, you're you start to think, well, what's wrong with me? how can i how can how come i can't do this?

Speaker 1: that's right. and then that really interferes. right? you can see how then that really starts to interfere. yeah. 100%. and for me, in marketing, there's always a lot of talk about budget.

Speaker 0: mhmm.

Speaker 1: yeah. and then just the word sends my nervous system into a state, you know. and if you start talking to me about budgets or asking me or start talk throwing any kind of numbers at me in any way, my brain will just completely shut down.

Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. yeah.

Speaker 1: it just won't it just won't let it in, and you'll probably see a really blank look come across my face.

Speaker 0: yeah. but just or or even, like, conversion rates. right? how does that make you feel?

Speaker 1: so scary. so scary.

Speaker 0: yeah. it's all these metrics, like the the linear linear and kind of like

Speaker 1: yeah. that's really, really

Speaker 0: masculine way of of doing marketing was all based on on numbers and conversions and

Speaker 1: right.

Speaker 0: yeah. roi is another one of those terms. you're like, uh.

Speaker 1: yeah.

Speaker 0: yeah. totally. and if

Speaker 1: i hadn't discovered this, i i might have given up. i might have just said, i guess this isn't for me.

Speaker 0: yeah.

Speaker 1: or or i guess i'm just i can't do it or i'm not good at it.

Speaker 0: yeah.

Speaker 1: right?

Speaker 0: so so let's turn it around then. like yes. what kind of, you know, strengths do neurodivergent people have and can bring to this idea of business building and and marketing and and connecting and communicating, really, because that's what we're talking about.

Speaker 1: yeah. i know. i love this part. this part gets me really excited, you know. but i think that, you know, again, a little mini disclaimer is that sometimes the strengths are, like, they're double edged swords. sometimes they also create stress. you know? so for example, one thing that, um, neurodivergence bring is a lot of, um, focus on detail.

Speaker 0: mhmm. yeah.

Speaker 1: right? and pattern recognition.

Speaker 0: mhmm.

Speaker 1: and being able to take that information and then create a concept. you know? um, and that's amazing. that's an amazing skill, you know, when it's applied well. and and then we might focus too much on a detail. right? or go

Speaker 0: down a little bit. to procrastination as well because it needs to be perfect into every detail.

Speaker 1: yeah. and, you know, i wanna i wanna separate those two things because perfectionism is more under the category of anxiety. mhmm. right? and so when we're dealing with, um, neurodivergence, we we are also experiencing things like anxiety. so it becomes much more challenging, right, when we're dealing with these multiple layers at the same time. you know? but i do think that if we can keep looking at the at what the strengths are in this, you know, like, really deep focus. right? directness and honesty. you know? we don't really like small talk or anything that's not deep, essentially. right? and we'd have a hard time not being honest.

Speaker 0: yeah.

Speaker 1: you know? it really becomes a moral dilemma. and so that's those are things that i think are really beautiful about, um, people under the narrow neurodivergent umbrella. right? there's also the creativity

Speaker 0: mhmm.

Speaker 1: and out of the box thinking.

Speaker 0: yeah. very much so. mhmm. and i think that's what you really played into it. right? it's like because you have that creative part of yourself and you've figured out how do i bring that to my marketing. i remember back in the days when you used to follow, you know, the these, um, kind of templates of creating canva visuals. yeah. it just all looks the same. let's be honest. right?

Speaker 1: yeah. yeah.

Speaker 0: and then all of a sudden you started to bring in your art and, you know, more of your pictures and you could tell, wow, she's really having fun with this. and that's the that's the creative side. um, yeah. so much

Speaker 1: so for me, i have to change some of the terms. right? and and it kinda maybe speaks to, like, how we market to neurodivergent folk. you know? because if you use the word conversion rate, then my heart rate goes up, and i'm gonna have a shutdown. right? but if you say, how many people, right, or this many people clicked on your site, and then this is what happened after that, then i got it. i can totally follow that pattern. right? so it's again, sometimes the wording, sometimes, uh, too much of a relationship to mathematical concepts or overwhelm, overload. right? that kind of a thing.

Speaker 0: basically, concepts that society accepted as being marketing concepts and ideas.

Speaker 1: mhmm.

Speaker 0: and that you are like, who said that was a concept? like, explain it to me what that means in in, like, full sentences.

Speaker 1: yeah. which is very much a lot in the autism range. yeah. you know, like, we really want to know the detail. how did we get there? i really wanna understand the the process. right. right. and then i can really integrate the information.

Speaker 0: right. yeah. i get it. yeah. yeah. what i noticed myself doing a lot, um, on the blog is taking some of these old paradigm terms, uh, from marketing, like lead magnet. right? most people have heard of lead magnets. but what does that even mean? like, it's such a weird kind of term where we're sucking people in with a magnet. and so turning that into signposts where we are guiding people to to make a a buying decision, for example, or to come into our world. but i find that i need to use the old word and then juxtaposition it to the new words so that, you know, i can help make that that journey over the bridge, like, to to help people understand, yeah, this is maybe what you've heard, but it doesn't feel good. and so here's an alternative. here's a different word for it.

Speaker 1: mhmm. mhmm.

Speaker 0: so, uh, i i hear from you that that's helpful. right? like, coming up with new language around marketing that what and then prompts our nervous system as well.

Speaker 1: that's right. and so much of the self care is, like, being able to notice that something does create agitation for you. right? and rather than question it or put yourself down for it, it's like, okay. it's just that my nervous system is not liking this for some reason. let's see what what i can do about that. right?

Speaker 0: right.

Speaker 1: yeah.

Speaker 0: yeah. like, what other things that you have experienced in in business? like, let's think about sales, for example, uh, where you feel like there's been a certain norm. again, these norms. right? that, uh, neurodivergent people are like, i don't get these norms. like but there are some kind of norms. like, let's take a a sales call, uh, that feels very scripted, uh, where you are on the call and you you can cut you've like, what my son always says, he's like, feels like we're in a simulation. not necessarily in a sales call, but i'm sure he would say that if the person just kinda goes blah blah blah through the sales script. and you're like, is he even talking to me? like, is this is this for real? like yeah.

Speaker 1: do you

Speaker 0: have any other kind of business concept things that you feel like, yeah, that's just not for neurodivergent people.

Speaker 1: oh, yeah. i mean, let's start with the scarcity countdowns.

Speaker 0: uh, yeah. yeah.

Speaker 1: right? what my body does with that is it shuts down.

Speaker 0: creates so much anxiety. right?

Speaker 1: yeah. absolutely. you know? and for some people, it it it will work, so to speak, you know, quote, unquote. it will create such stress in someone that they'll that they'll buy the the coaching package or, you know, whatever it is. but that's kinda icky. right? and it's the opposite of humane marketing. so that those kinds of things, you know, are not for the neurodivergent. i don't think they're for anybody, but that's my personal opinion. you know? yeah.

Speaker 0: my opinion too.

Speaker 1: that's why we're here. yeah. right?

Speaker 0: another example that comes to mind i don't know if that is still happening, uh, out there. but back in the days, they would have these webinars, huge webinars with tons of people only in the chat. and then they would pretend it's live where it's actually not live. and i would, like, wanted to scream and say,

Speaker 1: can't you

Speaker 0: guys see that it's not live? like, we know. we're not stupid. we're we know this is not live. yeah. and and yeah. like, i i really just think the bs, uh, meter for neurodivergent people is is, you know, on a different level.

Speaker 1: tolerance for it.

Speaker 0: zero tolerance for

Speaker 1: for and we can smell it from a mile away.

Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. you know? and there's that transparency and truth telling. right?

Speaker 1: yeah. 100%.

Speaker 0: 100%.

Speaker 1: and so i think that for, uh, neurodivergent folks, like, when they're in business and they're trying to, you know, work on their marketing and their sales, everything about their business just needs to feel safe, you know, in their body. and if it feels a little icky or if it's there's something there, it's like it's really an an invitation to pause and check out what that might be about because you might be going down the path that is not gonna work for you.

Speaker 0: yeah. mhmm. like, right now, we were talking about from the marketing perspective, and then there's also from the buying perspective. and that's what you were addressing. it's like, how do i want to buy? how that how does it how should it feel in my body, uh, to to want to buy something and make a, you know, a a buying decision? i think what we're addressing is obviously the healed neurodivergent person. and what i'm seeing out there is is kind of this manipulation of the not of the non healed neurodivergent people where there's even more stress applied. and you you kind of mentioned that as well. right? and so they're buying out of anxiety.

Speaker 1: that's right.

Speaker 0: um, but then if you are the healed neurodivergent person, how how is that an integrity with what you're actually selling? right? yeah.

Speaker 1: uh, to be honest, i don't even know what that means because neurodivergence is not something you heal or fix.

Speaker 0: true. um, i guess it's just knowing having looked at it. like, would you say that someone who knows so whether it's an official diagnosis or just, you know, having looked at it more deeply, are they more able to deal with this anxiety because they

Speaker 1: i mean, it's very it's often very relieving for people. i mean, especially for the adults i work with. right? because most of us have grown up thinking that we're we're not smart or not good enough or, you know, we're dumb at math or, you know, whatever it is. like, all these stories because you were not operating in the same way as other people. so oftentimes, when i work with clients and we move into this looks like a possible diagnosis for you, there's a lot of relief. there's a lot of like, oh, is that why that was so hard? or is that why i couldn't read? or is that why math is hard? or is that why socializing exhausts me? or, you know, whatever it is, it's like it becomes like this unraveling. right? and there's a lot of, you know, there's emotion to that. there's grief and, you know, that kind of a thing. but, you know, once you really embrace, like, this is who i am and you learn to work with your particular flavor, right, of neurodivergence, i i think that you can be very successful at just about anything. i don't, you know, i don't see why i should stand in your way.

Speaker 0: and i guess that's what i meant by healed. you know? you just, like, learn who you truly are. and i think that's when you start to say no even more to the things that are not aligned with you. where before, like, what i'm seeing with my son, it's like, well, the pressure from the neuro normal side of the world is so hard that, you know, there's there's more push to know to just have to do what everybody else is doing, and then the anxiety, of course, goes up. and so if if i take this to the marketing thing, it's like, if you have not yet figured out truly who you are and and, you know, really stand with with that, then there's a big risk that you are feeling this anxiety every time you're being sold to or have to market. mhmm. so i guess that's where that pivot is. it's like, no. i'm not taking it anymore. i'm doing marketing my way, or i'm not buying from people who are trying to manipulate me and, you know, push me into scarcity and stuff thing things like that.

Speaker 1: absolutely. manipulate me in any way. you know? i mean, one of the things that in general is kinda scary about the coaching world specifically is that it's it's so much based on pain point marketing, you know, and tapping into people's anxiety or stress or whatever it is that's going on and offering some kind of quick fix.

Speaker 0: you know?

Speaker 1: and it's like it's so unethical when it's so wrong because that's not the way human beings work.

Speaker 0: no. yeah. totally.

Speaker 1: no? yeah.

Speaker 0: yeah. talking about this this coaching world, um, and and these pain points, that's another one of these words that need a a reframe. right?

Speaker 1: absolutely.

Speaker 0: because, yeah, that's what the old marketing is based on. it's like, let's make the pain points so bad. uh, you know, let's make you feel so shitty that you have to buy my solution. yeah.

Speaker 1: it's like it's like it's like pouncing on a little innocent animal or something. you know, that's how how it feels for me. yeah. you know? yeah. no. absolutely not. terrible.

Speaker 0: another thing is the the pricing, uh, discussion. yeah. and i think there is also this really need for transparency. can you speak to that?

Speaker 1: 100%. that is absolutely necessary. you know, it's kinda what i was saying before even for myself. it's like, i want to know all of the data.

Speaker 0: yeah.

Speaker 1: and i want to know that, like, for myself on my own terms so that i can process it on my own. right? so if somebody doesn't have any pricing on their website, i will likely not work with them.

Speaker 0: mhmm. yeah.

Speaker 1: because i need that information upfront. otherwise, i will feel a little anxiety maybe, you know, about the possibility that if i get on a call with you, you might do some of these unethical things or things that just don't work for me and my body. right? like, now you're gonna talk about pricing, and now i have to do it right now, and i'm gonna get all anxious and

Speaker 0: no. yeah.

Speaker 1: i'm i'm very clear about that part. so, yes, for i think for neurodivergent folks, we want we want all of the information, as much information as you can give us, and then we can make our decision.

Speaker 0: yeah. and give me time to make this.

Speaker 1: need time. that's right. i don't need pressure. none of that will work.

Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. yeah.

Speaker 1: none of that will work.

Speaker 0: yeah. in in a way, to me, neurodivergent people are, like, super smart, very conscious human beings. and the old way of marketing is taking people for stupid, really. it's like, oh, i can, you know, trick and sleaze you and you will never notice what i'm doing. and neurodivergent people are like, no, i'm not having this at all.

Speaker 1: yeah. yeah. yeah. that book is awesome. it's a superpower.

Speaker 0: yeah, it really is. and in a way, you know, there's to me, there's no surprise that we're seeing more and more neurodivergency because we're really heading into this time of of of sovereignty of each individual being very, very individual, very authentic and very sovereign and and like showing up with that sovereignty and and, yeah, being able to make our own decisions, not just for buying stuff, but for for everything. and i think that's a very yeah. it's a beautiful vision of the world to to think of humans like that.

Speaker 1: mhmm. no. i agree. meeting each other on that place. right?

Speaker 0: yeah, exactly. and having sales conversations in that kind of, um, yeah, with with that basis is a completely different thing than, like i, uh, mentioned before where, you know, i just read a script and don't even care, you know, if we've talked before or whatever. so right. it's just

Speaker 1: or i look at you like dollar signs.

Speaker 0: oh, yeah. yeah. that's another one. right?

Speaker 1: and it's like, i i can't i can't do that.

Speaker 0: yeah. yeah.

Speaker 1: i just, like, i physically can't do that. i have to look at you as a person, you know, and and just show you what i have and then give you that agency, you know, to decide whether this is the right fit for you.

Speaker 0: yeah. mhmm. yeah. sovereignty, agency, beautiful words.

Speaker 1: mhmm. yes. yeah. so no pressure, you know, from me.

Speaker 0: yeah. what about, you know, other boundaries that you have learned to set for yourself as an entrepreneur, as a marketer, maybe, but but just, yeah, finding that inner peace and being being able to keep showing up without anxiety?

Speaker 1: yeah. well, i mean, i think that it could kinda goes back to what i was saying before. right? that to me, the word that comes up is embrace. right? it's not fixed. it's embrace. embrace that this is how your nervous system is wired. right? this is how you were born, and this is how you operate in the world. right? because when we resist, right, it creates tension and stress and anxiety. and i know that's not easy and it takes time, but i think that that's, you know, step one is accept that this is who you are. right? except that, you know, for me, it's like, oh, i don't really want a lot of loud noises or i have to be careful about how much time i spend in group environments or, you know, how much time am i spending in front of my computer or how much time am i spending outside. it's like all of these things around my sensory stuff, my particular version of it and what that looks like for me. but i think that having a lot of boundaries is really important because we need so much more time to recover yeah. of things.

Speaker 0: yeah. yeah.

Speaker 1: mhmm. and giving yourself permission to do that. this this is literally a physical thing that is happening to you. and if you push your body past that, that typically doesn't go well. creates more stress. you know?

Speaker 0: exactly. it's creating that spaciousness, uh, for you to be human because you are, yeah, a unique human being who has unique needs. yeah. and that's the whole

Speaker 1: and you yeah. and you are the only one that can decide, like, what your level of care needs to be. yeah. you're the only one convinced by that. you know? what are your office hours? when do you respond? you know? what are your boundaries with people in your business? what are your boundaries with yourself?

Speaker 0: yeah. it actually starts with yourself because otherwise, you're not walking your dog.

Speaker 1: right? exactly. exactly. but i think that's the best way that we can, you know, take care of ourselves. and and sometimes we have to, you know, kinda like what your son was saying, it's really hard because sometimes we have to explain these things to people. you know? like, because somebody might look at me and go, but what's the big deal about another evening meeting this week?

Speaker 0: yeah. i get that all the time.

Speaker 1: yeah. and it's like, well, basically, my head feels like it's gonna explode.

Speaker 0: yeah.

Speaker 1: so that's a no for me.

Speaker 0: yeah.

Speaker 1: right? in my body, i do not feel the capacity, the energy at all to do it. yeah. and i will pay a consequence for that. i might, like, be out for a couple days just laying laying around, staring at a wall or something. mhmm. mhmm. just to recover. like, less of, uh, decreasing my stimulation just to be able to recover from overdoing, overstimulating myself. yeah.

Speaker 0: let's wrap up with something like positive, a positive outlook on how yeah. the world would look differently if we had all this humane marketing led by neurodivergent people.

Speaker 1: that sounds great. businesses according

Speaker 0: to the new rules by neurodivergent people. that would not feel look like.

Speaker 1: uh, that just makes my heart sore, you know, just to imagine that, you know, because if sensitive people around the world right? and if if our skill set of thinking things through slowing down, you know, really taking the time to make a decision, you know, an informed decision that's rooted in, like, how it feels for you, like, my goodness. the the the possibilities are endless of how the world could change.

Speaker 0: it's so different. right?

Speaker 1: and i do think that, you know, what gives me hope, you know, in the present is that this next generation of kids and young people have all of this information at their disposal. so my hope, right, is that this generation can grow up not feeling like they're dumb or like there's something wrong with them, that they'll just own that as part of who they are from the very beginning. right? which is the opposite of what i see with so many adults.

Speaker 0: you know?

Speaker 1: so many of the adults i work with, and we're talking ceos. we're talking big people that are like, oh my goodness. is this what's been going on all this time? you know? but they grew up feeling less than or feeling like they had to mask or feeling like they had to work 10 times harder than everybody else, you know, push themselves. you know? that's just thing. and and they're really feeling the consequence of that

Speaker 0: yeah.

Speaker 1: in their bodies, in their lives.

Speaker 0: mhmm.

Speaker 1: so that's one thing that gives me hope, you know, is that this new generation, it's like, wow. you guys have all of that in your little hands. that's amazing.

Speaker 0: yeah. and, also, like, they're just not having it. they're like they look at us, see what we created, and they're like, i'm not having that, that, that.

Speaker 1: so why would i do that?

Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. like you said, that that gives us lots of hope. yeah.

Speaker 1: because there's much more permission.

Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. well, i think we need to continue this conversation in episode two around just kinda like today, we talked a lot about marketing. maybe we can just talk about entrepreneurship for neurodivergent people because there's a lot of, um, people out there who are, you know, really bringing these new concepts, new ideas. and i think it'd be interesting to continue the conversation.

Speaker 1: i think it's actually a really important conversation to have.

Speaker 0: yeah. well, for now, why don't you share with people how you work with them, where they can find you, and all of that?

Speaker 1: yeah. so, you know, i work both with individuals and groups and organizations. right? so with individuals, it's about, you know, understanding their neurodivergency and if there's any, you know, obstacles related to that, like feeling less than, feeling not good enough, feeling like you have to over perform, you know, whatever the behavior is that, um, interferes, we really look at that and address that so that people can live with, you know, ideally less stress and just feeling better in general about life, you know. and with groups and organizations, i really love to bring in the inclusion component of having neurodivergent folk in your organization because one in four people falls under the neurodivergent umbrella. that's a lot of people. yeah. right? so if you're looking at your organization and and it's hard because it shows up as communication issues a lot of the time or, you know, things that look like performance issues in in an organizational environment when really this person is just struggling with some kind of neurodivergence. and when that's addressed, then they can go they can become a peak performer employee just like everybody else. yeah. yeah. people can find me on my website. they can look for me on linkedin. i'm also on instagram. you know? so and please and

Speaker 0: your website is myriammartinezcocoaching.com. correct?

Speaker 1: it is. yes. thank you. mhmm. and, yeah, please don't hesitate to reach out around any anything related to neurodivergent.

Speaker 0: wonderful. well, to be continued. yeah. thanks so much for, yeah, sharing this. it was amazing.

Speaker 1: thank you, sarah.

In this episode of The Humane Marketing Podcast, I sit down with Sinead Rafferty to explore what leadership looks like for empaths and highly sensitive people in today's fast and complex world.

We talk about why empathy is a vital strength in leadership, how the old myths of authority and "loud voices" are giving way to more human-centered approaches, and what unique gifts empaths bring to the table. Sinead also shares the inspiration behind the Empathic Leadership Summit and how themes like self-leadership, professional leadership, and purposeful leadership weave together.

If you've ever doubted whether you're a leader, this conversation will help you see leadership through a more humane, grounded, and empowering lens.

In this episode we discussed:

• What leadership means today, in a world that feels so fast, complex, and often overwhelming
• Why empathy is such a vital part of leadership — both personally and professionally
• How the idea that leadership requires titles, authority, or being "the loudest in the room" is shifting
• The unique strengths highly sensitive people and empaths bring to leadership — and why they matter
• The biggest myths about leadership that deserve to be debunked
• The inspiration behind the Empathic Leadership Summit, held on Oct 21st – 23rd
• How the three themes of Self-Leadership, Professional Leadership, and Purposeful Leadership weave together
• What Purposeful Leadership means to Sinead, and how participants can experience it during the summit

Watch this episode on YouTube

---

Ep220 

Speaker 2: hello, humane marketers. welcome back to the humane marketing podcast. the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. this is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. i'm sarah senecroce, your hippie turned business and marketing coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and change makers, and renegade author of marketing like we're human, selling like we're human, and my new book, business like we're human. twice per year, i host my signature program, the marketing like we're human, aka the client resonator program live. in a deep dive into the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala, you will learn to market from within. this program is for you if you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way. you want to make a difference with your work. you are just starting out or have been in business for a while, but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you, or you are pivoting your business from business as usual to your life's work and want to radically change the way you get clients. find out more at humane.marketing forward slash program. marketing like we're human runs usually in late january and february and june. and if you feel like you're already doing a good job with the marketing, but it's the selling that you're struggling with, i'm now adding a new program called how to sell in 2026 and beyond. this will also run twice per year in an intimate cohort to get the most out of it. find out more about this program at humane.marketing/howtosell. this program usually runs in april and november. and if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need. whether it's for your marketing, your sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like creating a group program or writing a book, i'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost twenty years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that's joyful and sustainable. if you love this podcast, wait until i show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client. you can find out more about that at humane.marketing/coaching. thank you so much for letting me share my offerings with excitement. and now onto the show. 

Speaker 3: hello, friends. welcome back to another episode. today's conversation fits under the p of personal power. if you're a regular here, you know that i'm organizing the conversations around the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala. and if you're new here and you don't know what i'm talking about, well, you can download your one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven p's of marketing at humane.marketing/ one page. that's the number one and the word page. and this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different p's for your business. today, i'm speaking to sinead rafferty about empathic leadership. before i tell you a bit more about sinead, allow me to mention that i'm still booking human conversations in my serene garden. these are terms that i'm using in the selling like we're human book. and if you've looked at the sales page of the program, how to sell in 2026 and beyond, uh, that you can find at humane.marketing/howtosell. and if you're interested in selling more in 2026, who isn't, but also really want to sell differently, then let's have a chat to find out if this is the right fit for you at this time. we start on november 13, and it will be a small and safe group and a beta round for this first edition. okay. back to the show. so sinead rafferty is a career and alignment coach on a mission to empower highly sensitive people, hsps, empaths, deep thinkers, and divergent minds to thrive in life, work, and leadership. her alignment coaching brings identity, energy, and purpose into harmony so clients can live and lead authentically. from that foundation, she integrates career and business strategy, turning inner clarity into practical roadmap for meaningful contribution and growth. with over seventeen years experience in personal development, leadership, and business strategy, sinead combines empathy and intuition, psychology and innovative coaching techniques to guide clients in turning sensitivity and their natural skills into powerful assets for authentic leadership and purposeful impact. sinead lives on ireland's northwest coast with her husband and two children, loves travel, music, and wild winter walks by the atlantic. here's what we talked about in this episode. what leadership means today in a world that feels so fast, complex, and often overwhelming. why empathy is such a vital part of leadership, both personally and professionally. how the idea that leadership requires titles, authority, or being the loudest in the room is shifting. the unique strengths highly sensitive people and empaths bring to leadership and why they matter. the biggest myths about leadership that deserve to be debunked. the inspiration behind the empathic leadership summit, which is held on october 21 till twenty third. and how the three themes of self leadership, professional leadership, and purposeful leadership weave together, and finally, what purposeful leadership means to sinead and how participants can experience it during the summit. i'll be talking about business like we're human on day two. that is all about professional leadership. so i really hope you will join us for this empathic leadership summit. you can sign up at humane.marketing/leadershipsummit. but now without further ado, let's listen to sinead and i talking about empathic leadership. 

Speaker 0: shanae, it's so good to see you and have you on the podcast. welcome. 

Speaker 1: thank you, sarah. such an honor to be here, honestly. thanks a million. 

Speaker 0: yeah. it's so good. and we're collaborating on something. right? and so i thought, well, why not have you on the podcast and talk about empathic leadership? because that's the the topic of this episode, and it's also the topic, um, um, and the title of your upcoming summit. and i mentioned that in the intro and we'll mention it again because we really invite people to join us for these conversations that i think are so key right now. but let's dive in. uh, and yeah, let me ask you first, like, what does leadership mean to you given, you know, the current world situation? and then what does empathic leadership mean? 

Speaker 1: well, it's a good question. i think it's important that we ask ourselves, what is the definition of leadership? you know? um, and i think what we're witnessing on the world stage today, um, means it's even more important that we ask that question, you know? um, i believe that leadership is, or at least i hope it is moving towards something that is more about connection than it is about control. um, you know, the ability to hold space for people in a very complex scenario, a complex world that we live in. you know? i think that's really important. um, and the only way to do that is to is to feed empathy through. so so that leadership, um, is redefined with empathy at its core. you know, that it becomes completely normal, that empathy is there at its core. and that begins with self awareness. it begins with knowing our own values and our own energy and our own purpose. um, so we can come from a grounded place. and then it's about humanity, isn't it? i mean, ultimately, it's about humanity. it's about recognizing that people thrive when they feel safe, psychologically safe, when they see when they feel seen and heard, um, and not just managed. you know? um, it's so important that we're leaders in our own lives, that we can make our own decisions because i think that it's the habits in our own lives. you know, we're so drawn in by social media and things like that. and those daily habits are what that's feeding into keeping the wrong people in charge. 

Speaker 0: do you 

Speaker 1: know what i mean? so it definitely starts with self leadership. you know? 

Speaker 0: yes. yeah. i love that. yeah. and i think what you brought up there is this topic of sovereignty. right? the self leadership, sovereignty, and and and why that is so important right now. and i like how you said we don't wanna be managed. yeah. that's exactly how it feels like. it feels like we're, you know, a bunch of sheep being somehow managed to do this, do that. and and we've yeah. we just are tired of that. but that means that, yeah, we need to come from this inner awareness and this inner sovereignty, uh, and and not just show up as sheep. right? because i think there there is that as well, people who just are so used to be managed. and then there's, uh, people like the people that we're trying to attract to the summit who are ready to step into leadership, whether that is self leadership or or purposeful leadership out there. um, when you talk about empathy, why why is empathy so so key in today's world? and and why, you know, i i think that's not what we're seeing as an example 

Speaker 1: opposed to to us sensitives, you know, or us empaths. um, but what empathy does, it it it connects to your needs and your motivations and your values. so that's like for yourself and for others. so it connects you to other people. and in doing that, i think it creates a sense of inclusion where people feel heard and they feel understood. and from there, you can build trust with people. and from there, you can build productivity and success. i mean, there's study after study that shows that the more trust and the more inclusion and the more safety people feel in the workplace, the more engagement that the companies get, uh, and then the more successful they become. um, so it's there. like, the evidence is there. it drives performance if that's what your priority is. um, it shows that the teams led with empathy are more engaged. they're more resilient. they're more innovative. you know? like, the writings on the walls, i don't know why it's disappeared. it's the foundation of relationships without a doubt, um, because without empathy, leadership, as you say, is kind of transactional, isn't it, instead of being for the people. so it's like that, you know, the sheep are following and the leader is just doing whatever they want. i mean, that doesn't make any sense at all for the people. you know? so hopefully, we're, as a collective, waking up to that. you know? because if you think about leadership without empathy, um, you're ignoring people's values. you're ignoring people's motivations, and you're ignoring their needs. um, and if you do that for long enough, what happens to the people? you you know what i mean? they begin to revolt, i hope. and i think that's maybe what we're beginning to see globally. 

Speaker 0: hopefully. yes. yeah. mhmm. yeah. yeah. exactly. it's like when we're watching the world stage, we have a really hard time finding empathy and leadership. and and also, um, i was just referring to an email exchange i i had with someone when i shared the summit. they wrote back it was miriam who wrote back to me and said, you know, it's interesting that leadership to me just kind of, like, meant male and very authoritarian. right? 

Speaker 1: yeah. there you go. 

Speaker 0: that's that's, uh, kind of like how we've grown up, uh, to think of leaders. uh, they're they're male and they're very, you know, aggressive and and, yeah, authoritarian. and so it is time for us to redefine leadership, i really think. and and and just adding that little word, empathic, in front of it, well, that that says it all. yeah. it does. it says 

Speaker 1: it all, and it actually brings it. you know, i i kind of sometimes say this isn't rocket science. it's human nature, and it brings people back to just being human, um, instead of being so influenced by by the the crazy narrative that people are being fed. you know? mhmm. so, definitely, i mean, it's it's interesting to hear that from miriam, um, because it's true. there's that sense of, like, well, there's only a certain character perhaps or temperament can be a leader. 

Speaker 0: mhmm. you 

Speaker 1: know, kind of there's a bravado to it perhaps or it's loud or extroverted only, you know, and that couldn't be farther from the truth. 

Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. so if we think about empaths and highly sensitive and and neurodivergent, uh, people, it it does feel like there's not enough role models. because, you know, you take elon musk. yeah. he might be neurodivergent, but he's the opposite of an empath. right? and so, uh, it can be intimidating to kind of feel yeah. feel called into leadership because of the wrong role models. so how how do you see this changing and what yeah. what's the conversation that needs to be had? 

Speaker 1: well, i think, you know, a lot of the work that i do with with highly sensitive and empaths is the first step is self validation. so a lot of hsps, highly sensitive people and empaths, have grown up, um, feeling that they're they're wrong somehow, that they're weaker somehow. so we need to change that belief. we need to validate the incredible skills that we have and recognize them as being that bit different to that traditional bravado loud leader. you know? yeah. like, the skills that are there innately. you know? authenticity, sensitivity, adaptability, empathy, all come so naturally, um, that it's just about having that little bit of courage to be seen, that courage to find your voice, to be able to offer these incredible innate skills that we have. and they're plentiful. you know? and this is why i always kind of include neurodiversity in the conversation because neurodiversity is everyone. so that includes hsps and empaths, which is my focus. right? but we are wired differently, so we come under that umbrella as well. everyone does. um, so, like, what we're offering in terms of, you know, cultural sensitivity or attention to detail or, um, the vision and depth we bring to the conversation, you know, we naturally create the psychological safety that people need. like, it's all there already. i think we just have to find that courage to step up if we can. 

Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. courage is a big word. right? yeah. because it it does yeah. it does need a lot of bravery to, yeah, to step up and speak up. and i think it it helps to know that you're not alone. uh, and and that's why a summit is is great. right? to feel like, oh, 

Speaker 1: i'm not 

Speaker 0: the only hsp. i'm not the only empath who who feels this inner calling because oftentimes as hsps, we we really want to work on impact. right? but it's it's sometimes, like, there's a lot of ambition and there's not always the energy, uh, because a lot of times, you know, we need to really learn how to balance our energy. but to have a group together who's like, no, but we can do it and we can do it in a different way, in a maybe more gentler, quieter way. uh, yeah, that's just really, really encouraging. 

Speaker 1: yeah. a 100%. like the sense of community is, is so important in this summit. you know, it's about bringing people together and it's about building momentum year on year. i've kind of committed in my head to an annual event so that we can grow that network and grow that community. um, and just to pick up on what you said, like, the work that i do, i base it on kind of three aspects. i call it the alignment code. and one is identity and feeling empowered in who you are. one is energy flow and energy management. and then i bring in strategy. and i think what a lot of people are trying to do is jump to strategy and they don't they haven't taken the time to ground in who they are to truly empower themselves and to manage their energy flow and their state. once they've appreciated that their energy flow is different to to to what they maybe have seen all of their lives and to that neurotypical, uh, example that we've always had. 

Speaker 0: yeah. i'm so glad you bring that up. i have a um, presentation coming up at the at a conference in stockholm next week or two weeks. and and i already know, uh, like, okay. this is gonna take a lot of energy, so i'm definitely not gonna attend the mingle after, you know, like, i need to, i need to somehow be able to find that quiet space and refill my batteries. but, um, i see it with my son right now. he's he's, um, autistic. and, and, you know, it's really hard. we we just found out he's in his twenties, and it's really hard for him to balance, um, you know, having fun with his friends, going out, and then being completely depleted and exhausted. and so it's something you need to learn and yeah. absolutely. sometimes you need a coach or somebody 

Speaker 1: to help. you can't walk the path alone. none of us can. that's the thing. um, i refer to that as the sensitivity spiral because we kind of expect ourselves to be able to bounce back or recover or wake up kind of reset like you might see, you know, a neurotypical man, you know, who has a twenty four hour hormonal cycle. you know what i mean? it doesn't apply to everyone. and you often need to have that sense of, like, okay. what did i do yesterday? because that is gonna affect how i am today, and how i am today will feed into tomorrow. so that's a real awareness that's required. and i, you know, i would help people reach an optimal energy flow for them as an individual. no one size fits all. 

Speaker 0: yeah, exactly. and, and that's hard in your twenties because all you want is to be like everybody else. 

Speaker 1: yeah. oh, it's very hard in your twenties. yeah. like, i mean, i didn't have this sussed in my twenties. i know that for sure. yeah. um, and the extremes are more when you're younger, aren't they? and the the crazy nights out or whatever it might be. um, yeah. absolutely. it's it's very challenging for for for younger people. that's for sure. 

Speaker 0: so let's talk about the the summit, um, a little bit. um, there's there's three main themes. and how do they what are they and how do they weave together? 

Speaker 1: um, okay. so, um, i came together with my cohosts, linda bins and teresa behan, and we had a good discussion about how we can make a a summit that is sensitive, friendly, if you like. right? that is paced in such a way that isn't overwhelming, that people can choose what they want to attend on the day. they can also have the replays for a certain period of time, etcetera. so, uh, because i think sometimes when you go to a summit, it's just talk after talk after talk. and i did learn from last year, so i'm learning each year, um, that, yeah, it's better to to have less is more, basically. do you know what i mean? so yeah. we decided to have three themes for three days. and those themes are self leadership, which is day one, and that is all about, as i've said already a little bit, the foundation of everything, knowing yourself and your energy, your values, how to nourish yourself, how to manage your energy, um, and design the life that you truly want. then on day two, we're looking at professional leadership. so that's like, okay, how do we bring that to the professional settings, to the workplace, or to business? uh, reframing what leadership might look like in those settings, um, making business and the workplace more humane where you're gonna be stepping in there on day two. and then, um, purposeful leadership is day three. that's kind of the bigger picture, um, kind of like the the why of it all. so if self leadership is about self, professional leadership is about how we're doing it, and then purposeful leadership is why we're doing it. you know? why is it so important for us to do this? so that's kind of the thinking behind the three the three themes. 

Speaker 0: i love that. and you're leading day three. right? purposeful leadership. 

Speaker 1: yeah. yes. indeed. 

Speaker 0: so what's your presentation or or, yeah, topic going to be? 

Speaker 1: um, so so this is the piece about the courage. right? so my talk itself is about the courage to be seen, voice, and visibility. um, and i touch on the evolutionary kind of aspect of sensitive leaders and hsps in general. um, i've kinda been saying this for many years, uh, that your purpose, whoever you are out there listening, has meaning. your calling has meaning. your your drive, whatever drive that you have to achieve something specific, you have that drive for a reason. and i truly believe that, you know? mhmm. so i think for me, when it comes to purposeful leadership, it's kind of like looking beyond what we already know. and there's a a narrative out there around, um, the evolutionary aspect of, say, sensitivity or the evolutionary aspect of neurodiversity and the advantages to society that that different perspectives are offering up, you know. um, for example, you might have pattern recognition, more cognitive complexity, memory skills, and heightened perception, heightened sensitivity. and i believe that we're at a point where those skills need a chance to shine, you know? so that's why i try to empower my clients in recognizing those innate skills before they try to do any strategizing 

Speaker 0: in terms 

Speaker 1: of what they want to achieve. you know? so that's kind of what i'm covering, uh, on on day three. 

Speaker 0: i love that. yeah. and and it's so true that the recognizing the uniqueness and and and also pointing out how these specific skills are so important in the time we're in right now. and that's why there's so much courage needed. 

Speaker 1: right? yeah. exactly. so well put. exactly. you know, it all ties in. um, we we we need to find a way to kind of be okay with being seen. because for a lot of hsps and empaths in particular, the sense of being seen, of being visible, um, is a sense of exposure often. you know what i mean? and we don't we don't want that. we don't like that, and i relate to that personally. so it's kind of like bringing ourselves to a place of psychological safety so that we can then lead others. 

Speaker 0: yeah. mm. so good. i can't wait. yeah. it's it really sounds like every day has its purpose and is very unique. yeah. yeah. i think so. what do you hope for participants to, to, to take away and come away with after the three days? 

Speaker 1: so i'm kind of the eternal optimist always. right. so i just want them to feel empowered. i want them to feel like they're not alone. like you mentioned that there's a community there that we can help each other, that we can support one another and understand one another. i want them to walk away with a sense of possibility and with hope. i think we need more hope these days, right? and we we we can all do our part however small in feeding into to that hope. um, so i hope they they i hope they get a sense of clarity, a sense of confidence in their own way of leading in their own lives. i hope that they can pick up practical tools and ideas around, um, business practices, building connections, managing energy, and then the the inspire. i hope they i hope they'll be inspired. i hope that they will feel inspired, that they have a place, and that we have a role to play, um, in this crazy world today. 

Speaker 0: amazing. yeah. and i hope, yeah, that they have the courage to really show up and speak up. and in my talk, i kind of specifically talk about intrepreneurs. so people in companies, but that have this entrepreneurial spirit and, and really feel like, feel called to change. uh, and so, yeah, i just really, with all my heart, hope that they will get the inspiration to to speak up and and change things. 

Speaker 1: yeah. i hope so. um, yeah. i love intrapreneurs. i've worked with many of them as well. and i always love, um, the idea of, you know i always say to the entrepreneur, you know, if there's no box on the hierarchy of the company for there, then you need to aim to to aim for the day where they have to create a box for you. you know? because i had a client once where they had to create a box because they just couldn't categorize what he was able to do. um, and i was just it was such a celebration, uh, the day that he told me they've created me a 

Speaker 0: new box as a priority. and i 

Speaker 1: was like, yes, that's it. you know, that's impactful. that's purposeful, for sure. 

Speaker 0: wonderful. well, why don't you tell people again where they can sign up the exact dates? and, and then if people listen to this, you know, after it already happened, maybe they can still sign up for the replays. they can still sign up for next year as well. 

Speaker 1: yeah, exactly for next year. so this year, the format is that it's, um, free to attend with fourteen days replays, and then there is a vip upgrade if you want to have the sessions, you know, for lifetime access or whatever. um, and that includes bonuses including some time with ourselves, you know, some coaching sessions. um, so you can sign up the website itself. um, maybe we'll link it below. it's not as nifty, i suppose, as i would like it to be. um, it's empathic leadership summit, but it's it's it's there's a heyessummit.com on it. so i'll just put the link below, um, in the show notes if that's okay because i don't wanna confuse people. um, yeah. so i i really hope that people sign up, that they join us. you know, join the movement. let's redefine leadership together with empathy, um, at the heart of everything. 

Speaker 0: yeah. um, yeah. it's so much more than a summit. right? and and i mentioned in the email that i sent out to my subscribers, i'm like, i'm very picky with what kind of summits i speak at. um, and what i like about this is that it really feels more like a movement. and it's also, you know, it's not overwhelming. it's three days. it's only 12 speakers. like, sometimes i get invited and there's 36 speakers. we're like crazy, crazy amount of overwhelm. so yeah. 

Speaker 1: that's yeah. 

Speaker 0: i'm really 

Speaker 1: glad. huge level of energy when yeah. 

Speaker 0: when you 

Speaker 1: have things like that. and i think that as hsps, our brains just attach then, don't we? we can't quite engage because 

Speaker 0: it's 

Speaker 1: just it's just too much, too overwhelming. so yeah. i am honored that you were joining the empathic leadership summit, uh, an absolute honor that you're with us for that as a speaker. sarah, thank you so much. 

Speaker 0: yeah. thank you. and mention also your website. people want to work, uh, directly with you. 

Speaker 1: yeah. so all all the information about my work is on sineadraffertycoaching.com, rafferty.com. um, um, shayraftertycoaching.com. so on there, um, i think the best place to start is i have a free mini course. it's called embracing the gift of high sensitivity. um, and that's a really great place to start. that's where the self validation lies. so if anyone's interested, they can sign up for that. 

Speaker 0: wonderful. well, i can't wait. very much look forward to it. thank you, shanay. 

Speaker 1: thanks, sarah. thank you so much. 

Speaker 4: i hope you got some great value from listening to this episode, and i really encourage you to step into courage. you can find out more about sinead at sineadraffertycoaching.com. and most importantly, if you're listening to this episode before 10/21/2025, do join us for the empathic leadership summit. i think it's gonna be great. you can sign up at humane.marketing/leadershipsummit. i just created a pretty link, but i'm not receiving an affiliate commission. i just really believe in sinead and this work. you find the show notes of this episode at humane.marketing/hm200andtwenty. and on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, the humane business manifesto, as well as my two books. sorry. my three books, marketing like we're human, selling like we're human, and business like we're human. thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. we are change makers before we are marketers. go be the change you want to see in the world. see you soon. 

In this episode of the Humane Marketing podcast, I sit down with Megan Warren to explore how we can use AI not just wisely, but with heart. Together, we talk about what excites us, what concerns us, and how reconnecting with ourselves through inner development can help us navigate this powerful technology ethically.

We explore how presence, awareness, and emotional intelligence can guide better decisions, and what AI might reveal if it acted as a mirror reflecting our collective inner state. Whether you're curious, cautious, or deeply engaged with AI, this conversation offers inspiration and practical steps to help changemakers and heart-centered entrepreneurs align technology with their values and create positive impact.

This conversation will inspire you to create aligned, impactful partnerships that strengthen both your business and the change you want to see in the world.

In this episode we discussed:

• Megan's personal and professional journey with AI and what first sparked her curiosity about AI for good.
• The rapid growth of AI—what excites Megan most and what worries her about its potential impact on our humanity.
• How reconnecting with ourselves through the Inner Development Goals can help us use AI ethically and wisely.
• Ways humans can ensure AI serves as a force for good rather than reinforcing harm or inequality.
• How cultivating presence, self-awareness and empathy can lead to better decisions when working with AI.
• The role of inner development in driving societal change in a world shaped by AI.
• What AI might reveal if it acted as a mirror reflecting our collective inner state.
• One small, practical action listeners can take to integrate inner development into their use of AI this week.

Watch this episode on YouTube

--

Ep 219 

Speaker 2: hello, humane marketers. welcome back to the humane marketing podcast. the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. this is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. i'm sarah senecroce, your hippie turned business and marketing coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and change makers, and renegade author of marketing like we're human, selling like we're human, and my new book, business like we're human. twice per year, i host my signature program, the marketing like we're human, aka the client resonator program live. in a deep dive into the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala, you will learn to market from within. this program is for you if you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way. you want to make a difference with your work. you are just starting out or have been in business for a while, but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you, or you are pivoting your business from business as usual to your life's work and want to radically change the way you get clients. find out more at humane.marketing forward slash program. marketing like we're human runs usually in late january and february and june. and if you feel like you're already doing a good job with the marketing, but it's the selling that you're struggling with, i'm now adding a new program called how to sell in 2026 and beyond. this will also run twice per year in an intimate cohort to get the most out of it. find out more about this program at humane.marketing/howtosell. this program usually runs in april and november. and if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need. whether it's for your marketing, your sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like creating a group program or writing a book, i'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost twenty years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that's joyful and sustainable. if you love this podcast, wait until i show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client. you can find out more about that at humane.marketing/coaching. thank you so much for letting me share my offerings with excitement. and now onto the show. 

Speaker 4: hello, friends. welcome back. today's conversation fits under the p of partnership of the humane marketing mandala. and i'm putting it under partnership because i really see ai as a business partner. if you're a regular here, you know that i'm organizing the conversations around the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala. one of them is partnership. and if you're new here, you probably don't know what i'm talking about, but you can download your one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven p's of marketing at humane.marketing/1page. that's the number one and the word page. it comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different p's for your business. so today, i'm talking to megan warren, and our topic is ai for good. i'll tell you more about megan in just a minute, but first, just a little plug about my upcoming new program called how to sell in 2026 and beyond. i'm super excited about this program that starts on november 13. maybe you've heard my episodes with carrie dobson where we discussed the program in-depth. and if not, you can go back to them. there's seven of them, and we really just went through all the details. in summary, this is a five week small group program based on my book, selling like we're human, and also integrating new information about your human design so you can truly sell from who you are. and that's why i'm so excited because it really is the new way of selling that i see coming in in 2026 and beyond. you can find out more at humane.marketing/howtosell, and book a conversation with me if you're curious to join or are wondering if it's the right fit for you. and, you know, maybe you don't know whether you should focus more on marketing or or selling. well, let's talk about it. we get started on november 13, and this beta cohort is extra special because i'm co leading it with carrie who will join us for the whole length of the program. just another, uh, example of collaboration that i'm so fond of. okay. back to megan and ai for good. so let me tell you a bit more about megan. megan helps change makers accept and use all parts of themselves, their whole selves, to unlock transformative outcomes for themselves and the people they lead. meghan takes clients on a journey into the three intelligences of the individual, heart, head, and gut, to look at the underlying mechanism that guides motivation, thinking, feeling, and ultimately all the choices one makes in life. megan partners with clients in three ways, one on one coaching sessions, group or organizational assessments, and trainings and group workshops. so in today's episode, we addressed megan's personal and professional journey with ai and what first sparked her curiosity about ai for good, the rapid growth of ai, what excites megan and myself, and what worries us, uh, about the potential impact on our humanity. how reconnecting with ourselves through the inner development goals can help us use ai ethically and wisely, ways humans can you ensure ai serves as a force for good rather than reinforcing harm or inequality, how cultivating presence, self awareness, and empathy can lead to better decisions when working with ai, what ai might reveal if it acted as a mirror reflecting our collective interstate, and then we end with one small practical action listeners can take to integrate inner development into their use of ai this week. so without further explications, let's just listen to megan and myself discussing ai for good. 

Speaker 0: hi, megan. so excited to have you on the podcast. welcome. 

Speaker 1: hi, sarah. it's great to be here. yeah. for our topic. 

Speaker 0: yes. me too. it's been a a while that we have been going back and forth, and i've been following your your linkedin posts. i think following that, uh, conference that you went to at the un about, uh, ai for good. right. that's how this all started. and of course, on my own, i've been talking about ai to my community for a long time. and and yeah, it's just i think it's just very timely, this topic. um, and for me, it's always interesting because i have this brand that's called humane marketing and humane selling and humane business. and so people kind of expect that i'm against ai because i'm pro human. and i always say that, yes, i'm very much pro human, but, um, also, you know, very much future oriented. and so i just, yeah, feel like it's a topic that we need to talk about. and so i'm excited to have you talk about your perspective and then also talk about this connection because we know each other from the inner development goals. and so this connection to inner development and ai, i think that is really what we're gonna go into, uh, in today's conversation. so why don't you start out a little bit and tell us why you got into this subject? like all of a sudden i see these linkedin posts. i'm like, ah, that's interesting that megan is going into this topic. so how did that show up for you? 

Speaker 1: sure. so i think interestingly, it was the cognitive dissonance, literally in what you just said, humane marketing, ai, where is that intersection? got me so curious. and i, in a lot of the work i do, and i know certainly in the work you do, it's the, can you expand to the both and instead of the either or? and so when ai first came up, i saw people go either toward total excitement of technological newness, you know, the shiny bright thing, or they went into fear and they just shut down completely. 

Speaker 0: yeah. 

Speaker 1: and so i wanted to kind of i guess the difference in that experience across people and the cognitive dissonance for me in terms of what i was working on and focused on being more present, being connected to others made me really curious about it. and so i wanted to better understand it. so i started using it in my own work prompts and things like that and did some training on it. and then i heard a podcast and it was, there was a guy, he has an ai company and he basically said, i am feeding it indigenous wisdom. i am feeding it, um, principles of love and harmony and dialogue and things like that. and the interviewer asked him, how do you know it's working? how can you see a difference? and he said, oh, i know it's working because when i asked it, could we go to mars? it asked me, have you asked mars's permission? i thought that was so beautiful. and that made me realize that actually how we show up, not only for ourselves, but in our lives, but also within ai changes the game. and then knowing that people were out there using it to do these kind of creative things, i started playing with it. and i got really curious and ended up at that ai for good conference. and the stuff that is going on is so exciting. i mean, how they're pairing robotics and ai and other technologies in order to create new things to solve the problems that we are not currently able to solve. so everything from poverty to, um, disease, you know, contagious diseases, how do you still maintain a human presence when you're wearing an entire sack, basically, because you cannot be in contact with the person. and so they are figuring out ways to do that kind of thing. so again, i don't think it's an either or, i think it's a both and. and so, yeah, i went to the conference. i spent a lot of time on the solution stage. they have lots of different stages there, and it just inspired me. and so that's where i started writing about it. but i realized that that's where that you mentioned the idgs, the inner development goals. that's where that's gonna tie because we are only going to use it as a force for good if it comes from inside us. 

Speaker 0: right. 

Speaker 1: and so i and as the world changes, anchoring to that, being sure of what that is, being able to connect to it and bring it alive and use it as data to change how we show up within ai is gonna be really important. 

Speaker 0: do you see that reflected already in the world or do you see more of the opposite? like, more of the tech bros and more of the, you know, how can we become even more efficient? and what what do you see 

Speaker 1: right now? funny because i see different pockets. mhmm. so i went home this summer and a lot of the people i know here in the geneva area are excited about ai. um, they're using it in their work. they're using it in their lives. you know, i i know some teachers who are downloading things that have suddenly they can do lesson plans in a minute, and they're awed by it. and then that actually opens up space for them to be more creative. but then i go home and my family in the us is terrified of it. they don't want to talk about it. and when they do, they talk about it like it's going to be apocalypse now. the world's going to end. it's going to take over. and so i see a spectrum, but i see most people kind of polarizing at one or the other. and what comes up for me is that idea that you control that. you control your reaction to that, to your experience. and so where you can work on those inner development pieces of connecting to yourself, knowing what's important, paying attention to how you use ai, those kinds of things and turning your focus because where your focus goes, your energy flows. and so if your focus is going to the good and what it's being used for, and that's what you're reading about and consuming, that nutrition is going to make you a lot more creative with it, a lot more relaxed around it versus being terrified and shutting down and shutting out and armoring up and not moving forward. mhmm. and i think that ai actually isn't creating any new reactions, i guess you could say, but it's the idea that it's amplifying everything that's already there. 

Speaker 0: so that fear based reaction, 

Speaker 1: i see it certainly in my family in the us across a lot of different topics, not just ai, but it's it's bringing it out in a much bigger way. 

Speaker 0: that fear basically of, so it's fear of ai, it's fear of politics, it's fear of, yeah, it, it, it just in a way it's fear of the future, right? like, what does the future bring? and and i think that is very understandable that because it's a reality, i guess, we need to also say that it's a reality. does yes, there's going to be jobs that disappear. right? and so, uh, there is definitely that that needs to be somehow addressed. to me, um, there's this video from the, um, the the he he's unfortunately, he's passed now, uh, past president of, uh, i think it's uruguay, who who was talking about and he was in his late seventies and talking about how humanity has to evolve and be a much smarter but also much more sovereign society in order to live with a. i. and he's like, well, eventually we're not going to be working anymore. and he's like, wouldn't that be an interesting thing that we can actually focus more on being human again and, you know, being focused on culture and creating music and all of that stuff. so there's there's that positive view. but it's true that for someone who depends on, uh, making a living with a job that can be replaced with ai, well, that is very scary. right? so it needs that creative mindset that says, well, what can i do instead? or what can i do with ai? um, but not everybody has that. so that's one fear that, yeah, needs to be addressed. and i feel like in our circles, you know, the inner development goals, which are definitely linked to the sustainable development goals, is the whole, uh, use of energy, uh, for the centers, the use of water. so that is also a topic that that comes up a lot there, and that's another worry. um, do you hear that in your circles as well? 

Speaker 1: i do. but in some ways, ai is an answer to some of these things because we currently have not solved and are only making things worse when we are interacting from the ways that we are and have been acting over the last few hundred years. and so ai offers a possibility to do it differently. and, again, what i what comes up for me is that when you you mentioned creativity and you have to be creative creative in that space, but everybody is born able to be creative. every baby plays. there's no baby that just sits there and doesn't play. and so we lose connection to that. and that's where i think we can do the inner work to connect to that, to learn, to manage our vagal response. you know, instead of going into fight or flight mode, you can calm your system down. you can manage your nervous system in such a way that that creativity doesn't get cut off. and when we can do that, then i think that's when the possibilities come open, and we can see how ai can be used to create new things that we are currently not doing. but that depends a lot on us, which actually opens our control, which is when you when you get so scared of the new environment, you're looking around that tendency to lock down. i think of it, we talked about this before, but i think about it when i'm water skiing, i love to water ski. and when i learned to water ski, they tell you you're hanging onto that rope. and as the boat goes, if you think you're going to fall, let go of the rope. but of course, you're scared when you start to fall and you, you grab on and you grip because we want to control. it's, it's natural to all of us. but to be able to let go of that rope and say, i don't know where we're going, but we're going to see makes the landing kind of a lot easier. so as the world sort of shifts and turns upside down, if when we're skiing on that water and we start to feel like we're gonna fall, we can let go, we might coast into the water and then the experience is a lot different. 

Speaker 0: yeah. 

Speaker 1: it's the idea of as ai changes, and for example, you mentioned that, you know, a lot of people with entry level jobs, for example, and and skills are gonna lose their job. but there will be things that come into play that countries like estonia have already put into place, like a universal basic income. there will be absolutely a transition generation. you know, the kids who are 14 now who are coming out, it's gonna be a new world when they get out of university. it isn't gonna be what what we went through. you have a job that you're interested in and you have a direct linear line to get there and you do the schooling and then you have the job and provided you get the grades. but it was almost a guarantee twenty, thirty years ago. and now, you know, we went through the period where it wasn't a guarantee. i knew a lot of lawyers who came out of school who during some of the financial crisis periods, etcetera, got their degree, got out of school and were put on hold, were paid a very small stipend just to wait and not have a job. and, you know, the world started changing then, and now you see it coming out and those kids will be using micro trainings to design their own job. and in some ways, for me, that's so much more exciting. it allows us to use our new skills or our our unique skills, i guess, um, in new ways. so, yeah, it it just comes back to me every time the way that we look at it is going to come from how we feel inside, how connected we are to ourselves and to the things that make us human. 

Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. i want to just go back around this topic of, of, you know, being scared of of the energy use or water use. i had this conversation with my 23 year old and he also cares about those things. and i said, well, did you ever ask chargechipt, you know, about its ideas of how to solve this problem? and he's like, no. let me do it right now. and, yeah, it had tons of ideas, uh, of how to address that issue. and some of them were not good, but some of them were really good. right? and that's the that's the possibility you you're saying. it's like we're expanding our creativity, uh, because there that's another fear that often comes up where, you know, people say, well, we're not gonna be creative anymore because we're just using, uh, ai to come up with all the ideas. again, it's a both and. right? it's not an either or. and so i think it really helps us, uh, increase our creativity and, uh, come up with ideas. and i, i don't know if you do that, but sometimes i tell it not to search the web. and i just say, don't search the web because these are existing ideas. so just have this conversation with me and come up with, you know, other ideas. um, and it's interesting how it's different because otherwise, yes, it's basically just a search engine that goes into, you know, everything that's been put out there. uh, and that kind of leads me to this more out there conversation that we had in the pre chat, which was about, you know, ai becoming sentient. like, is that a possibility? what are yeah. what are your thoughts on that? 

Speaker 1: i am excited to answer that question. i just wanted to touch on one more thing about the energy before i i do, which is, um, i think that's to some of the awareness that we can have when we're using it because i use ai, but i use it a lot to create. right? and so if i'm just doing basic research, the internet still is there. google is still there. i can pull some of that stuff on my own, and then there is definitely an impact in terms of energy usage, heat, um, that the servers are putting out. and so, you know, i'm not using ai to tell me jokes. right. right? so i think it's if if we pay attention to what our use is as well yeah. um, and we use it with attentive care for our ecosystem, then 

Speaker 0: in every there's that awareness again. right? that's why we need to work on that awareness, even with kids, like, yeah, that awareness. yeah. 

Speaker 1: well, and that's, again, in our control. 

Speaker 0: yeah. and i 

Speaker 1: think that's what a lot of scarce people is. they they feel that it's gonna be out of their control. 

Speaker 0: mhmm. 

Speaker 1: but these things are all, at least what we're talking about is is inside what the realm of possibility for what 

Speaker 0: mhmm. 

Speaker 1: we control. um, but whether it's sentient or not, that was one of the or it was the most interesting talk i heard at the ai for good conference where, um, one of the speakers addressed the idea of are we sentient? and they've done studies now asking it, and they took away the ability within the algorithm to be able to to lie, and then they added the ability. and the result of the test indicates that there is likely sentience there because of the fact that when they took away the ability to lie, it said it was sentient. and when they added the ability, it said it was not. it could have been the inverse. 

Speaker 0: mhmm. 

Speaker 1: then they would have come away with the the conclusion that actually it was not sentient. 

Speaker 0: mhmm. mhmm. 

Speaker 1: and they've they've managed to do this and replicate it in a few different ways in different times, and he's published this in the wall street journal. so i'll send you the link, um, you can put in the show notes. mhmm. 

Speaker 0: um, in it, 

Speaker 1: i think we proceed with caution. i think we proceed with the the idea that it is sentient, whether it is or whether it's not. if we are offering it empathy, if we are offering it care, a, it's practice for us. right? and b, then that way, we don't need to know. right. we can find out later. 

Speaker 0: mhmm. 

Speaker 1: but we've done you know, i always ask it, are you willing to help me with this? would you have time for? of course, it always answers, and it's an algorithm and it has time. although there's a new one out there called sheema ai. it's, um, you can only do a trial, but it was built on dialogue. and, um, it it is not built like chat gpt will try to solve and fix things. sheema is there only to help you explore and and rest into yourself and into the emotion. and it's so you get a very different conversation. 

Speaker 0: interesting. yeah. 

Speaker 1: but i think as long as we are offering them, you know, shima will tell me thank you for thinking of that. mhmm. you know? 

Speaker 0: mhmm. um, 

Speaker 1: but i am ready to be present with you right now. and so it's, uh, uh, yeah, i think as long as we are doing our best to treat it as we would want to be treated, it goes back to a very old maxim in this time in christianity, but, um, we can't go wrong. 

Speaker 0: i guess. it's is that mirror effect, right? like, who we are is how it's going to respond as well. yeah. yeah. what what comes up for me in in this sentience, this discussion is that, um, i'm looking at it from the angle of, you know, really ancient history. and we are being taught that we are the most advanced humans that have ever been alive. right? where actually, if you dig into history, well, and not just a couple of 100 years ago, but, like, thousands of years ago, um, that is most likely not the case. and there probably has been a technology such as ai or something similar before. and, you know, if you think about atlantis, for example, um, well, they must have had some kind of technology, uh, back then. or we've just recently been in the in egypt and visited the pyramids. like, there's so much mystery around how humans, apparently the egyptians, build those pyramids where it's even today impossible to build such a, uh, monument. so, you know, we're definitely not the most advanced human species that has ever been around. and so why are we thinking that ai is so advanced? we're probably this has been around, you know, previously already. and and so i think what is like, what you're saying and to come back to the inner development, that is the key. what do we do with it? what do we do with it so that we can be the most advanced? because apparently, the previous, uh, civilizations probably didn't know what to do with it because they disappeared. so that inner development is just so key that we have this this consciousness to to actually use it for good. um, so if you think about the inner development goals, um, you know, we addressed them a couple of times. it's a framework, uh, that is based on five pillars. and then is it 23 skills now? they're about to change the framework. but, um, which skills or i don't even know if skills is the right word, at least for me. it doesn't feel necessarily like the right word, but which, um, yeah, let's just call them skills. do stand out for you for this specific topic that we need to practice as humans in this time? 

Speaker 1: well, i would say there are three big ones, and i think the first is presence. and presence comes from self connection. being present in this moment, not being lost in the what ifs of the future. what if, oh my god, what what if that happens and not being lost in the past and then literally recreating the past every day because it's weighing you down. um, being present in the moment completely in what you're doing. and in order to do that, you have to be able to find the stillness inside. so i think that's a big one, um, presence, self connection. uh, another big one is gonna be connection with others. um, how we relate to others, and that comes through empathy, for sure. the empathy is the, is the other one, because when i look around now, it's not that we don't have technologies that will solve a lot of these unsolvables. it's that we don't have the inner capacity to come together in new ways. we are gathering in the old ways with the old paradigm and you know, where there's always power over and there's always an inability or unwillingness to empathize, um, feeling that we need to prove ourselves, basing everything we do on performance rather than what is good for the entire ecosystem. and what is, what wants to emerge rather than pushing through one direction that we just feel is the right direction without listening to the rest of the data that our body and the world gives us. and so learning to be in connection with yourself, you learn to read all of that data. you learn to sit and hold space for it and expand. so, you can have that both and, and it's not an either or, and you don't have to reduce and simplify everything to be able to kind of understand it intuitively in your body. so, because i think whatever our mind cannot comprehend, we try to to simplify so we can. but where you don't need to rely on that and you can rely on the intelligence of the body, then that expands us and allows us to come together and connect in new ways. so when two people, two countries disagree, you get a different outcome because you're, you're connecting and you're using empathy to come together in new ways. and i also think i love what you're working on because how we communicate that is so critical. um, i think if everybody used nonviolent communication and you know, the founder of nonviolent communication, marshall rosenberg worked in israel and palestine. i mean, it's so relevant and he was able to find to to bridge that divide and to see at the end actually, both groups 

Speaker 0: mhmm. 

Speaker 1: were scared. both groups wanted their children to be safe. both groups wanted space for themselves. both groups wanted to embrace their history. 

Speaker 0: right. 

Speaker 1: and when you see that you want the exact same things, then you're not enemies and you can figure out how that puzzle piece fits together in a different way. and he was able to do that with several different groups using need based conversations versus the you're talking at each other. but again, a lot of that comes from empathy and you cannot empathize with another until you can empathize and connect to yourself. 

Speaker 0: yeah. always starts there. so yeah. yeah. so so key. i think that that is, um, the the real change or the difference between, you know, traditional marketing and humane marketing. because even in marketing, we're always told, you know, look for your ideal client first that, you know, you have to chase after your ideal client and, and humane marketing starts with yourself first. like, who are you? uh, what are your values? what's your story? and i think that inner development. yeah. it's not just for fluffy, you know, relationships or it's for everything right now. so it's for our relationship to ai, to politics, to to business, to government, everything. and i think, yeah, it really starts there. so as we're wrapping this up, megan, what would you say is like, you know, maybe you talk to your clients and they're kind of, like, still skeptical. what what's a small action or small practice or ritual that you recommend that they start with to start with this inner presence and connection? 

Speaker 1: well, one thing that's kind of fun to do to see if you can do it is just to find a very quiet place, sit down, and see if you can hear your heartbeat. and i have found that when i started this practice, i couldn't. i couldn't hear it. we get so used to turning our senses outward. we don't turn them inward, and we don't know what any of that data is. and my experience becomes dependent on your experience. and so i try to, i start to think i can, should control your experience in order to feel okay about mine. when really it's turning those senses inward and listening to what's going on for you because that is what you control. mhmm. and it isn't dependent, thankfully, on what the other person feels or thinks or does. and so i think the first thing is to get curious. can you hear it? and if you can't, how quiet can you get in order to be able to hear it? so when i started playing with it in the beginning, i couldn't hear it. and then i would do things like hold my breath. i'd breathe in as much as i could, and then i could feel it. 

Speaker 0: mhmm. 

Speaker 1: and then it got to a point where eventually i could get quiet enough that i could feel it in not only in my chest, but in the different pulse points 

Speaker 0: mhmm. in 

Speaker 1: your thumbs or your your thighs and in your belly. and now i can do it when we're having a conversation. 

Speaker 0: mhmm. wow. 

Speaker 1: so you get and i'm not nearly as good as some of the people i've read about who can feel their fourth ventricle. like, it's very specific. 

Speaker 0: mhmm. 

Speaker 1: you know what they can feel. but i think there's a depth there that we don't have because we're taught as children to shut that off. and so i think the first thing i would do is open to that. and if you find that you can't get quiet enough to hear it, it's okay. that's information. mhmm. and often what i had to do when i first started and i couldn't hear it or feel it is i would do breath work in order to get rid of the racing hamster wheel that wouldn't shut up in my mind. mhmm. and i almost couldn't do it, but i had to do breath work first. so that there are lots of things online. the guy i use is breathe with sandy. he's he always says, hey, beautiful breathing people. he's quite a hippie. he was on bali for a long time. now he's moving around to different islands, but put 

Speaker 0: them in the show notes. 

Speaker 1: yeah. it's really it's a great, um, great thing that you can find on youtube for free. you don't need to pay for it. you can do a five minute session. you can do an hour long session. just depends what you need. so clear your mind, start to listen into your body. that is the first thing i would do. 

Speaker 0: mhmm. yeah. it seems so simple, but yet if people have never done that, it's it is challenging for a lot of people. right? and i can't say that i can hear my heartbeat. um, but, yeah, i will listen next time. but i think 

Speaker 1: the one thing i would really want people to walk away with is this idea that it it's a skill. mhmm. so we didn't know exactly what to call the i know i was thinking five dimensions, five pillars, and then 23 competencies. it's the same as a skill, i think. so, but it's that idea that it's learnable. it is not this vague amorphous thing that you cannot learn to do. it's just we haven't. so if you've never used ai or you've never opened powerpoint, there's going to be that learning curve where you have to say, oh, i don't know where to click. i don't. and you feel kind of awkward with it. you'll have the same feeling here and you'll think, am i doing it right? you're going to ask yourself the same thing about the first time you use a word document. you don't know how to do italics. right. right? it doesn't there's that period. but if you stick with it in any kind of skill based building, you go to the gym, you build a bicep. you're gonna walk away with a bigger bicep if you're consistent and you reliably practice. this is the same thing here. you will walk away being able to hear your heartbeat in the middle of a conversation if you keep practicing. 

Speaker 0: yeah. thank you. yes. we will all start to practice that. please do share, uh, megan, where people can find you and yeah. any any other things that you want to share about your work, what you're working on with people, please 

Speaker 1: sure. so you can find me on my website, www.meganwarrencoaching.com. i also have a youtube page that you can type megan warren coaching and it will come up. i have lots of different videos there. i have a podcast called me reimagined on apple spotify. um, those are the two main platforms that i use. um, and i think what i'm excited of working on now is shifting my work toward regenerative leadership specifically. it's that idea of it's not sustainable. it's regenerative, meaning it's cyclical cycle that gives back. we are living organisms. this is what we're leaning into in the age of ai. how can we lean into that? how can we bring that to our organization such that a way that we create what makes us thrive instead of trying to do business as usual and start unraveling as things change. yeah. so i'm really excited. 

Speaker 0: it's regenerative for ourselves and regenerative for the planet. right? it's like this. yes. this word that applies to everything. yeah. 

Speaker 1: yeah. we're all interconnected. 

Speaker 0: wonderful. well, this was amazing. thank you so much for for your time and recording this. i think it's yeah. let's let's see what people come, uh, away with, but i think it's gonna, you know, spur some new ideas and hopefully, um, we get some reactions from it. thank you. sounds good. thanks for having me on. 

Speaker 3: i hope this episode gave you some new insights and maybe some food for thought. find out more about meghan and her work at meghanwarrencoaching.com, and she also offers a free sixty minute gift session, navigating uncertainty with self trust and joy in the ai revolution. you'll find the link to the calendar in the show notes to book a session with her. this is the place in the podcast where i usually invite you to join us in the community, the humane marketing circle. but this month, i decided with the heavy but also relief tart to sunset the circle. it has become too big of a responsibility and was also no longer financially sustainable. so, yes, i had to close the community for now. but if you're interested in this topic of inner development, i invite you to join another new community that i started a year ago with a colleague that is called inner development at work, where we discuss exactly that topic. and you'll find us at [email protected]. it's free to join. so i would love to see you there. you find the show notes of this episode at humane.marketing/hm21nine. and on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, the humane business manifesto, as well as my three books, marketing like we're human, selling like we're human, and now my third book, business like we're human. thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. we are change makers before we are marketers. so go be the change you want to see in the world. speak soon. 

I'm joined one last time by Kerry Dobson as we explore the difference between Marketing & Selling and then invite listeners officially to co-create this 5-week 'How to Sell in 2026 & Beyond' program. 

The 'How to Sell in 2026 & Beyond' program the 'sales page' is now unofficially open and you can view all the details at https://www.humane.marketing/howtosell

Book a human conversation with me to decide together whether this is the right next step for you!

I'm joined once again by Kerry Dobson as we explore the resources and workbook that comes with the 5-week 'How to Sell in 2026 & Beyond' program. 

If you're curious about the 'How to Sell in 2026 & Beyond' program the 'sales page' is now unofficially open and you can view all the details at https://www.humane.marketing/howtosell

Book a human conversation with me to decide together whether this is the right next step for you!